Bill's Notes

[Industrialblog, November 13, 2006]
More thoughts on the cultural war
When I wrote the culture war post, I was concerned, as Harry pointed out, that my argument would be susceptible to the charge of "Well, what about this divisive topic?" or "This one". Particularly, Iraq.

But I stuck with the post anyway, and stand by it now. But I would like to adjust my opinion; I think one mistake I've made is overlinking the culture war with political conflict. I really see them as separate issues, though they contain overlapping areas. Imagine two mylar drawings on top of each other. Sometimes they line up and appear as one, and other times they don't line up and appear as two. That's kind of what I'm getting at. Thus, the Dems are not automatically one way in the culture war, and the Republicans the other.

What I'm saying is I do believe this issue of sexual morality is the thing that's most dividing us and that the issue of sexual morality is the fundamental fault line in Western Civilization.

However, as in any abstract hierarchy, you could go deeper, all the way to epistemology if you want. I think sexual morality however is a good, concrete issue on an abstract hierarchy that both reifies the differences below it (that is, the fundamental worldview differences beneath) while helping to explain much of the behavior differences above. And I stand by it.

That doesn't mean someone else couldn't divide up the cultural war differently. And perhaps the idea of a neat fault line in Western Civilization is an oversimplication -- perhaps there are many such divisions. Perhaps what we have is not a simple fracture, but a compound one. Right now, I'm looking at it as a simple fracture. We'll see where it goes from there.

Harry, also in the comments,
argues about "power and control" in the Catholic hierarchy; at which point, he has merely started to argue one side of the cultural war. The point was to get the lay of the land first. Arguing one side over the other wasn't the point of the post. However, he was correct in naming the issues of power and control -- and that's exactly what I was saying. The question "Does it matter who you sleep with ..." leads directly to issues of power and control (I would also add "advise" and "influence"), which is exactly what I was getting at. This fault line is about power and control over sex.

Perhaps Harry or someone else can make a stronger argument that this fundamental issue of power is ultimately more divisive in our culture, power more broadly speaking, of which the issue of sex is a subset. You could make the argument that there are twin fault lines of sex and money, for example. I just don't see our culture as divided about money as about sex. Your mileage may vary.

Also in the comments, Harry says that I have "perhaps intentional[ly] distort[ed]" a complex issue. If there's to be any progress in a discussion, it's a bad idea to accuse the other side of bad faith.

...

Now what did Chris want me to address?

*****

By the way, here's a good idea of what I mean by an important difference in the cultural war. And it's about sex.
Super G (www):
It is possible to talk about a culture war without talking specifically about political parties.

The GOP, of course, uses a certain culture war identify as party of it's political approach. E.g. the GOP has a strategy to use social issues to "motivate" its base to GOTV. So in terms of discussing the politics of the US, one may often have some element of a culture war discussion.

I don't think all social issues are related to sex/gender issues, though clearly that covers a lot of ground. For instance, I would say that something like the legalization of marijuana, the death penalty, and restricting PC games are not really about sex. Other issues are public versus private education and property rights in general. Also affirmative action has a non-gender related component to it.

Though perhaps all of the issues above really don't represent a culture war and may be I don't understand what you view as a culture war. Still, I don't think it is only about gender issues.
11.13.2006 12:02pm
Super G (www):
An alternative interpretation may be that there is a culture war going on about sex, but it is not the only war.
11.13.2006 12:04pm
Chris (mail) (www):
It's definitely not the only culture war. We've also got a north-south culture war going on. It only really heated up recently, I think, because with better communication and less federalism in government, the north and south are colliding more than they did before, excepting all that slavery and civil war and reconstruction stuff. :)
11.13.2006 2:39pm
Harry (mail) (www):

Bill, I'm not going to respond to this now because I'm too tired, and I'm heading over to spend the night in my house in a little bit.

One thing I can say is: I don't know if you're being serious here. Not at all. So if you're serious, and I respond like you're joking{,that's bad. (edit)}. But if you're joking, and I respond like you're serious, that's bad too.

If you're serious, then your argument is a gross oversimplification and perhaps an intentional distortion of a complex issue.


Hardly an accusation of "bad faith".

And you are the one who brought up the Catholic Church. You suggest that those who critcise or oppose ("attack") the Church's position are "elites". How do you define these "elites"? Are all people who "attack" the Church position automatically "elites"?

My objection to your thesis starts with line one:

One thing to keep in mind about the elections is that the relevant issue to most people is not that the Dems win or the Repubs win.
Ummm, yes it is. People didn't walk up to the voting machine and say "I am going to cast my vote for the person who shall fight for me in the culture war, which is all about sex." They walked up and said "I'm tired of the way things are. I'm tired of war without any plan for a conclusion. I'm tired of Republican mismanagement and lies. I'm tired of the status quo. I'm tired of a Congress that is nothing but a rubber stamp for the President. The country is heading in the wrong direction and has been for a while, and I want to see that change."

Or is that just crazy talk?
11.13.2006 10:12pm
Chris (mail) (www):
"Or is that just crazy talk?"

Yeah. People don't talk like the talking points of either party. They talk like regular human beings.
11.13.2006 10:48pm
Bill (mail) (www):
[..]

11.14.2006 9:56am
Bill (mail) (www):
[...]
11.14.2006 10:11am
Bill (mail) (www):
Harry, most people in this country do not form the partisan attachment that you claim, nor is your exercise in mind-reading accurate. You have stated your own reasons for voting, and your fantasy about what other people were thinking.

That's not to say the GOP hasn't blown it and gotten a well-deserved comeuppance.

And this is not to say that people haven't become increasingly partisan -- I think they have.

But my argument about the cultural war is not about this election, but about the deeper sources of conflict -- why are some people partisan, and why are other people adamantly opposed, culturally, to what the Church teaches, to what the Republicans seek ... and it seems to me a lot of that is rooted in a spiritual rebellion that finds an important locus in sexuality.

The "elites" I refer to who are opposed (not just elites, but led by elites) are political, journalistic, entertainment-based, etc. See Christopher Lasch's Revolt of the Elites for more information and for keys to just how radical this cultural war is, and how far it's taken us in less than 50 years.

Lasch's argument is that the revolt of the elites gains strength with John F. Kennedy, who gave lip service to traditional morality, but who completely rejected Judaeo-Christian morality in his own life, and was joined by a lot of powerful folks. And a lot of it was rooted in sex.

As far as the bad faith comment, I'm puzzled. If you say that I'm "perhaps" intentionally distorting an issue, you're either saying I'm "possibly" arguing in bad faith. You either need to back off that comment and apologize or back up your argument, because there's a pertty serious charge.
11.15.2006 8:11am